
Status: R

                               Message 2; Postmarked Wed Apr 22 15:10:20 1992

From: u27108@uy.ncsa.uiuc.edu (M. Shaheen)
Subject: A plot for a coptic state (inspite of the copts)
Cc: u27108@uy.ncsa.uiuc.edu

E netter
Al salamu ala man etaba' al hoda,

I have no interest or desire to have a flame war on the net between muslims
and copts. I think this is a great waste of energy and time. It is certainly 
not in the best intrerest of Egypt. I want to assure all coptic members of 
the net that I hold no ill feelings or intentions towards them or towards
the coptic community at large. 

I certainly do not mind coptic members of EN discussing matters of 
intrest to them and also issues that will help them enhance their 
status and promote the best intrest of their community, all that in addition
to their UNDISPUTED RIGHT to contribute to all other topics discussed on the 
net in their full capacity as Egyptians.

I hate to say, though, that when some minor group of Egypt net coptic members 
use the net for a platform to promote a certain political ageneda, which I am 
sure not supportd by the majority of the coptic community, when they do that 
then I feel that I have no alternative but to engage them in discussion at the 
same level. Let me assure my fellow egyptian copts that these discussions 
are aimed towards THAT PARTICULAR GROUP and not towards the copts at large.

The political agenda of that group, as I suspect, calls eventually for either 
a seperate coptic state in a part of Egypt, or at least, for a larger share of 
power to the coptic community, perhaps more representative in the Parlimant 
and the Cabinet. 

The methods used to achieve these goals comprise of the following:

1. Polarize the Egyptian community by spreading hate between muslims and 
   copts. This is intended to attract more copts to that movements, and 
   to create a situation that will make copts feel like a hated and opressed
   minority.
2. Portrait the coptic community as a large percentage of the Egypt and 
   thus use these claims as a pretext to demand more share in power.
   Also building a lot of churches all over Egypt will give the impression
   that there is a large population of copts in Egypt. (copts ofcourse
   can build as many churches as they need to practice their faith, and if
   it was determined by a just pannel that they do need more, then by all
   means they should be allowed to build them. However, double that number 
   is a sign of bad intentions).
3. Undermine the Arab Islamic identity of Egypt. This identity is a major 
   hurdle in the way of this plan. The muslim majority in egypt will not 
   give their large share of power easily, and thus this plan aims to
   weaken the basis of this expected resistance.
4. Fighting the movement to revive Islam in Egypt. This group sees no larger
   threat to the succes of their plan other than an Islamic government in 
   Egypt (as evidance in Sudan). The current secualr governments can be
   pressured in many ways to bend to these plans. Outside pressure is only
   possible with a secular not an Islamic government.
5. Stressing the seperate identity of the copts, away from the majority
   of Egyptians.  Creating this seperate and unmixed identity for the copts 
   is necessary to convince the majority of the coptic community that
   Egyptian copts and Egytian muslims do not mix, thus gaining support
   to that movement.
6. Appeal to the world powers in the name of crystianity and democracy.
   The propaganda efforts to portrait the copts as an opressed crystian
   minority that is denied their basic rights and even tortured and killed 
   by the muslim majority is one way to achieve that. Another is to portrait
   the coptic group as a civilized democratic community as opposed to 
   uncivilized dictatorship-lovers muslim community. 
7. Portrait the coptic community as the protectors of western intrest
   in Egypt, as opposed to the anti-western fundamentalist muslims.   
   The zionists used the same method to justify the creation of Isreal
   to the western people and governments.

I want to make a statement here. This whole issue has started, in my 
judgement, in the late seventies when Sadat wanted to secure his shaky
position in power by using the method of DIVIDE AND CONQOUR between the
muslims and the copts. He, ofcourse indirectly, encouraged this movement
among a group that must have existed then, yet was unpopular and unsupported. 
He then used this group, or that group acted on its own to start the chain
reaction that was then called "Al fetnah Al Tae'feiah". If you recall, the
Egyptian media contributed greatly that time to further inflaming that 
situation. As might be expected, this situation got out of hand and
both sides ended up wanting Sadat's head. Sadat's action to curb this
situation, which he originaly started, are well known. 

Another very important point is that some outside forces have great intreset
in the weakness of Egypt. These forces have great interest in seeing 
this small flame get bigger and bigger until it eats up all of Egypt.

Let me say that I am but an observer to events who tried to analyze and
understand the golas and means of that group's agenda.  I have no documents
to prove what I am saying, I only wish to bring to the netters attention
the course of events in Egypt, and very obviously all the contributions
on this net written by CERTAIN MEMBERS of the coptic EN community.  I 
claim that each one of these will have a major theme that will fall within
the major seven points that I predect on above.  I can, ofcourse,
dig out all the masseges that will support my claims, however, I will leave
that to coming messages that I may have to wright to defend this theory.

A final note. If this group would open their eyes to see how the muslims and
copts live in unity throughout all of Egypt, and to see the many gurantees
that Islam gives to minorities: equal rights, freedom to practice their 
relegion,  etc.., they would realize that their efforts are but destructive 
both to their community and to their country Egypt.


Mohammad Shaheen

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                               Message 3; Postmarked Wed Apr 22 16:08:50 1992

From: shalaby@leland.stanford.edu (Mark Alexander Shalaby)
Subject: From and Egyptian to Fellow Citizens

Wow, things seem really to have blown out of proportion here guys.  Now
I am being attacked for wanting to change Egypt's constitution and not
knowing how to speak Arabic.  It is very amusing to see how people can
be just so intelligent without one saying anything.

First of all, I do now how to speak Arabic, and there are a few words in
mind that I would like to use now to describe some of the contributors to
this debate, but out of decency and respect to all others, I will not.

Second, the fact that Egypt is called the Arab Republic of Egypt has about
as much effect on making us Arab as the name Commonwealth of Independent
States makes the former Soviet Union seem united.

Look, I am not trying to inflame the wrath of any culture, I simply want
to point out that it is time Egypt stop living in the illusionary world
of Arab Unity and start respecting her own future.  I recognize that Islam
is the predominate relgion of our country, and I fully repsect the greatness
of the Islamic Empire of the 14th and 15th centuries, and its lasting legacy.
But the fact that we have Islam as our religion does not automatically make
Arabs our "borthers." Christians in Scotland do not run and embrace their 
Calvinist counterparts in SOuth Korea as borthers.  Get serious people,
political and relgious names may unite us all in another world, but wee
are living on the planet earth right now, and the realities that are in
front of us will not change by broadly painted strokes.

I resent the suggestion that I am not Egyptian and should go live in 
Malta.  Very interesting that one should point out that the name Mark
makes me less Egyptian than the name Muhammed.  A quick lesson in history will
show that Saint Mark founded the first church in Alexandria, a city which
in case one does not know just so happends to be in Egypt!

You can reject all I have to say and continue to live in a dream or wake up
and face and confront the harsh realities of the time.  Egypt, stand up
and take a hard look at yourself.

-- 


**************
 ()     Mark Shalaby              voice:      415/497-3646
\  /                              unix:       shalaby@leland.stanford.edu
 
 __
 II

**************
Message 7; Postmarked Thu Apr 23 03:54:24 1992

From: Emad M. Iskander <iskander@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Dear Egyptians



Dear Egyptian Brothers and Sisters of the TRUE BLOOD and the TRUE FAITH,

	My name is Emad Milad Theodore Iskander. I am Egyptian born, but
raised in America (GOD bless her). I have never returned to the land of my 
fathers, but have read volumes upon volumes about her, both past and present.

Ever since I was quite young, I can remember having nothing but the utmost
desire to help bring prosperity and progress to the land of my birth. 

Unfortunately, after the last few months' experience on this network, I can 
no longer say that this is the case. 

I have grown weary and thoroughly disgusted with many of the people on this
network, and could not even possibly dream of calling such people my fellow
countrymen. These are not men. They are swine. 

So who then am I addressing now, and even why? 

I call upon EGYPTIANS of the TRUE BLOOD. Actually, this is redundant since
to be an EGYPTIAN you MUST be of Egyptian descent. NO arabs. NO turks.
NO kurds or turds, or this or that. EGYPTIAN. PURE EGYPTIAN AND NOTHING
ELSE. .... This is number one.

I call upon those of the TRUE FAITH. I call upon those, my beloved brothers
and sisters, whose ancestors had the endurance, dignity, and faith not to 
adopt the religion of the bedouin, or any other foreign invader.
Ours is a great history , is it not? We are the real backbone of Christianity
and the Christian world. We have bore the Cross for centuries. Our sufferings
ALONE make up for the life of luxury lived by most of the World's Christians.

Have any other group of people on Earth suffered as we have suffered? Maybe
only the Jews....Maybe.

Yet we are blessed beyond measure. Remember, the saying and promise of our
LORD GOD:  ".... BLESSED BE MY PEOPLE EGYPT...." (ISAIAH).
Remember also the prophecy regarding our Church in Egypt. 

So, my beloved REAL EGYPTIANS, do not cringe on when you read the nonsense
on this network directed specifically at you. The voices of such idiots
are gone west with the wind. But we shall endure forever. And remember, too,
that all this was foretold to us. 

Can any of you believe the level of stupidity by some of these savages? 

You know, my cherished Copts, I completed an eight-page posting entitled
"The Modern Egyptian Automobile, Truck, and Motorcycle Industry." 

I was almost going to type it into the keyboard, but the saying crossed my
mind...." DO NOT THROW YOUR PEARL TO THE SWINE..."

And so I did away with the posting. 

Even here and now, they would bring terror into our lives if only they could.
It is CHRISTIAN VALUES, DEMOCRACY, AND FAIRNESS that puts the "edu" in so many
of their e-mail addresses. They enjoy freedom here that they would deny to
us back home. Some of them even are free to practice their religion in the
country's BIBLE BELT, and then complain about the construction of Churches
back home. Imagine that. 

It is the LAW and the CONSTITUTION based upon democratic pronciples that allows
them even to exist where they are. I guarantee you, my fellow Christians, that
if a "referendum" were held in a certain Midwestern state, the people would
unanimously vote to have certain houses of "worship" conveniently "stored in
File 13."

And yet they abuse the rights gratuitously yielded them. They have the nerve
to call their EMPLOYERS and EDUCATORS 'kooofar' and 'moshrekeen.' Naturally,
THE COMPUTER KEYBOARDS THEY ARE USING TO TYPE THIS 
NONSENSE CANNOT BE CONSIDERED TO HAVE BEEN MADE BY MOANEMEEN, AS THE PLACE
OF MANUFACTURE WOULD APTLY SUGGEST.

Do not, my fellow Christians, you hear the words spoken softly in you ear,...
"DO NOT THROW YOUR PEARL BEFORE THE SWINE."

So do not not worry about this bunch..."THEY SURELY HAVE THEIR REWARD...."


My beloved bros. and sisters of the PURE BLOOD and the TRUE FAITH,


ENJOY YOUR EASTER HOLIDAYS WITH YOUR SO MANY OTHER BROTHERLY CHRISTIANS.
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E.M. Iskander



